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By Caitlin Rockett | August 26, 2021 | Boulder Weekly

Greg Young is a professor of political science at 精品SM在线影片 and a veteran of the U.S. Navy. As a teenager in turkey, where his father was stationed during military service, Young developed an interest in the Middle East. His research on uncertainty and counterinsurgency has made Afghanistan a primary area of focus for him. We spoke with Young about the history of this region that has been called 鈥渢he graveyard of nations,鈥� and how he thinks the U.S. removal of troops will impact women in Afghanistan and the international community.听

Boulder Weekly: Can you give me a primer on Afghan government and politics?

Greg Young: There are 14 recognized ethnic groups: Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks, Balochis, Turkmens, Nooristanis (Pamiris, Arabs, Gujars, Brahuis, Qizilbash, Aimaq and Pashai), and I don鈥檛 know how many languages they speak. And there are 60 million of them that have absolutely no sense of nationalism. There is a book by a British gentleman, Rory Stewart, called听The Spaces In Between听(2004), and after the fall of the Taliban, he took it upon himself to walk across Afghanistan, Herat to Kabul. In doing so, he was testing A) Islamic hospitality: Would they take him in in all these little villages? And B) he was also testing what did they think about the Taliban? Do they care about Hamid Karzai (the new president the Americans had kind of installed, but he was ultimately elected)? In most of these villages, people had never been more than 25 miles from their village in their life, they had no idea what was going on in Kabul. They cared more about their poppy crop. And the hospitality was in fact fine 鈥� he spoke one of the languages 鈥� but very often these people have no sense of what it is to be an Afghan. And there鈥檚 this huge debate about how did this happen so fast? Well, the Afghan army has never been effective. The kids joined the Afghan army not because they have a belief in the central government, but because they want a job and they want to learn how to read and write.

It took nothing at all for the Taliban to bribe, pay, persuade many of these guys who had supported the government to change sides. And so the idea that somehow or another [the U.S.] can go in and nation build鈥� the United States military delivers kinetic force with incredible velocity and precision, but that鈥檚 not how you protect women鈥檚 rights. That鈥檚 not how you build a Western-leaning democracy. That鈥檚 not how you change a tribal system that has been in place for a thousand years.听

BW: What makes Afghanistan 鈥渢he graveyard of empires鈥�?

GY: I would say the diversity, the lack of a national sentiment, the illiteracy, the lack of communication, the tough climate, the fact that it鈥檚 not really contained within the borders that we consider Afghanistan, the fact that Afghanistan is the largest producer of opium in the world and that finances the Taliban insurgency as well as some money laundering banks in Europe. And the fact that the United States is the most powerful military in the world, but we have historically not been particularly good at counterinsurgency. Counterinsurgency is more political than military. It鈥檚 about winning hearts and minds. And it鈥檚 very difficult to use our high technological weapons on people who have AK 47s and RPGs, and don鈥檛 communicate via any kind of electronic intelligence.听

BW: There鈥檚 international fear mounting about what鈥檚 going to happen to women in Afghanistan. How valid is that concern?

GY: It鈥檚 certainly valid. But it鈥檚 been difficult to believe that 20 years of American military intervention in Afghanistan have really improved the lives of the people there. Probably more women and girls are going to school in Kabul, but I would say that鈥檚 not true about the countryside. And I鈥檓 not saying that鈥檚 something we shouldn鈥檛 care about, but by and large, if we want to do that, that鈥檚 going to take way more troops than we were willing to put in. 鈥� Protecting women鈥檚 rights is not really the mission of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps delivering women鈥檚 rights at the point of a gun. It requires aid and economic development, as well as trying to influence the Taliban with regard to women鈥檚 rights, but you鈥檙e not going to do it at the point of a gun. We should have invaded Saudi Arabia if women鈥檚 rights were our concern 20 years ago. I don鈥檛 believe that 20 more years of American military occupation would help women鈥檚 rights any more than change them on the margins, but it鈥檚 an issue and it is something we should care about. It鈥檚 not for the military to do. It鈥檚 a political issue, not a military issue.

BW: What does the reemergence of the Taliban in Afghanistan mean for international relations 鈥� how does it affect the world?

GY: I would say already we鈥檙e seeing openings for China and Turkey, who are trying to come in for maybe economic systems for construction projects, but not military intervention. I think we鈥檙e already seeing the Taliban trying to put on, at least in Kabul, a better face for the international community. But you see out in the countryside, what鈥檚 going on in the villages, retribution and women getting beaten up or shot for not wearing a headscarf. That certainly makes news, and I don鈥檛 know how widespread that is, but I would say you鈥檙e going to see the Taliban trying to put on a better face to the international community to maintain their aid that they鈥檝e been getting. Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries in the world, largely because of 40 years of conflict. The international community is still going to try to influence the Taliban with regard to opium production. They may be able to get some quid pro quos, but I don鈥檛 know how effective that will be. 鈥� There鈥檚 a lot of people feeling like their time in the military, that their time in Afghanistan was wasted because, 鈥業 lost a friend, I lost a colleague, I lost an arm, and now look what we鈥檝e done.鈥� It鈥檚 a similar feeling post-Vietnam. 鈥� But there comes a time when the sunk cost of blood and treasure is not worth any future blood and treasure. 听

Feminism in the Middle East

With feminist politics georgraphy professor Jennifer Fluri

We spoke with CU geography professor Jennifer Fluri more specifically about women鈥檚 rights in Afghanistan. For the last 25 years, Fluri has studied 鈥� often in the field 鈥� how feminist organizations in the region mobilize and operate, initially the internationally known Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA), and later, after her dissertation, a number of other women鈥檚 rights groups.

鈥淭here鈥檚 a lot of diversity in these organizations,鈥� Fluri says. 鈥淪ome, because they鈥檙e so driven by international donors, tend to take a liberal feminist, add-women-and-stir, if you will, approach; have women work outside the home to provide them with economic opportunities. Some take much more of a healthcare approach: Let鈥檚 try and decrease maternal mortality rates, decrease infant and under-five mortality, because those are serious issues in Afghanistan. Some took much more of an Islamic feminist approach and what it says in the Quran about women鈥檚 roles and Islam. Some took a more鈥� Marxist isn鈥檛 quite the right word, but more of a community-based, working-together approach. Some organizations were raising money to run shelters for women who had run away from their families or abusive partners.鈥�

Fluri is currently leading research on how the U.S. withdrawal of troops and resurgence of the Taliban are affecting women鈥檚 leadership roles in the country.听

鈥淥ne of the things I hope [the U.S. doesn鈥檛] do is just fetishize and focus on the veil and the burka,鈥� as symbols of women鈥檚 rights in Afghanistan, Fluri says. 鈥淭hat鈥檚 not the issue. It鈥檚 more about what women鈥檚 positions in society are going to look like going forward, and how they dress isn鈥檛 as important to women as what they do or where they鈥檙e able to go. Right now it鈥檚 just so chaotic 鈥� for both men and women. What鈥檚 going to happen to the infrastructure and healthcare and all these people who had jobs? Are they no longer going to have jobs because they were dependent on international funding? Will women be in the government in any way, shape or form? What voice or influence will they be able to have? Those are, I think, the questions we should be asking.鈥澨�

听

Fluri suggests two organizations to donate to support Afghan women:

• Women Globally Working to Protect Afghan Women:听Organized by Denver resident Patricia Cooper, a multi-hyphenate feminist rights advocate, gofundme.com/f/protect-women-leaders-in-afghanistan
• Rubia: Founded by Rachel Lehr, a co-collaborator of Fluri鈥檚, Rubia has helped raised funds for evacuation and resettlement of Afghan families over the last 20 years, rubiahandwork.org/donate听

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